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User talk:Aleal
redirect Hey Andrew, I did a redirect today on Sea Chanty and it didn't seem to take. Is something up with Wiki that it wouldn't recognize the code? --Nate Radionate 11:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC) :I've been focusing on grad papers and such, so I'm not entirely sure what you're having trouble with. Were you trying to redirect Sea Chanty to Sea Chantey or vice versa? I don't know which is the correct one, and I can't tell from the histories what you tried to do or what didn't work. Either way, if you need it addressed immediately, you might want to ask Scott or Danny, but otherwise, I'll check for your response this evening if possible. --Andrew, Aleal 12:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC) Sucatrac On BradFraggle's talk page, you mentioned a French version of Big Bag called Sucatrac. Are you sure this was the name, as the only Google result is your mention of it. -- Zanimum 11:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC) :That's an old discussion. I merely transposed the letters, the title is "Sacatruc": IMdb listing. Were you planning to create the page, or just curious? (I have more pages scattered, an AWN article on international CTW shows had some good details, but I'm pressed for time right now). --Andrew, Aleal 12:06, 19 April 2006 (UTC) Fictional Celebrities I thought I'd ask you here, rather then my talk page. What do you think about Liza Minnelli as "Lola" in "Copacabana"? And since I've yet to buy Season 1 yet, did Joel Grey sing "Willkommen" in his Emcee character from Cabaret? --Nate Radionate 16:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :Lola, unless you can demonstrate what prior work she's from, isn't a fictional celebrity, just a fictional character played by a celebrity; she belongs in Characters Played by Guest Stars on the Muppet Show. And I've never seen the Joel Grey episode, but if he did sing it in character, I'd count it. Basically, the only limitations are that the character had to have a prior existence, not be adapted as a puppet (so The Cat in the Hat, The March Hare, and The King of Id are all out, though that could be a fun list of its own later on), and that the character itself is being portrayed, not a spoof variant. So Kevin Kline as "Nick Chicken" (a Nick Charles parody) wouldn't count, but Mel Gibson as Hamlet or Jim Nabors as Gomer Pyle would, even if the character is being ribbed a bit. The main area I wasn't sure on was the "literary," but Danny said we could go whole hog, so I guess Ebenezer Scrooge, Marty Feldman as Scheherezade, and any celebs as fairy tale folks from Sesame Street could be tossed in. --Andrew, Aleal 16:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ::Okay. I think I'm following you now. Had a bit of a blonde moment. Lola is out, as she's just a character from the song "Copa". Maid Marion would be in, as she is well known from "Robin Hood". --Nate Radionate 16:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :::By George, I think you've got it! --Andrew, Aleal 16:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ::::I would say that Joel Grey did not sing Wilkommen in character as the Emcee. He didn't look like he did in the movie or in any pictures I've seen of him from the original Broadway production. --Peter Pantalones 16:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :::::Okay smarty boy. What if they are both a Literature and Film character. I'm thinking Doctor Dolittle now. I'd say film myself, but they were books first. And that's what I thought Peter, thanks for clearing that up for me! --Nate Radionate 16:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ::::::I'm not sure I'd add Doctor Dolittle at all unless you create a page specifically for the character, and not the production, and even then, did Henson produce the program or just supply the puppets? That makes a difference. Characters from The Witches are also a bit iffy, especially as Creature Shop productions tend to be differentiated from Muppet stuff, though that one was produced by Jim Henson and so has closer ties, but as a full on non-Muppet adaptation, it's a grey area (and then, I'd probably just list, say, Grand High Witch, who has appeared on Dahl merchandise and has the widest name value, though on the whole that area might be worth holding off on for a bit. Same for George of the Jungle or April O'Neill (especially since both are film versions of purely illustrated/cartoon characters with no live action cinematic depiction prior, whereas Long John Silver, Maid Marian, and Hercule Poirot are instantly recognizable. But anyway, if you did create a page for Dr. Dolittle the character, I'd probably stick him under literary. James Bond is under films because a) the films have to a large extent eclipsed and defined the image of James Bond on a wide scale in a way that most depictions of Long John or Poirot have not, and Bond appeared only as played by two movie Bonds, Pierce Brosnan and Roger Moore (though as I haven't seen either, I'll leave it to you or Peter to add details). Also, anticipating a possible question, you might be wondering whether to add Dr. Cliff Huxtable from The Cosby Show or First Lady Abbey Bartlett from The West Wing and the like. I'd sort of leave that up to you, but if you do add pages or just list fictional characters from shows that the Muppets guest starred on (and the West Wing First Lady and *especially* Dr. Huxtable probably qualify as famous fictional characters), I'd limit it to characters who directly interacted with the Muppets, not every regular who was in the episode. ::::::This is starting to get complicated, and I'm loving it. --Andrew, Aleal 16:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :::::::Very complicated, and I'm loving it too. Dolittle was produced by the Jim Henson company, so I'm going to add it, eventually. But right now i'm adding Rhett Butler, then quitting for a few. --Nate Radionate 16:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :::::::Rhett Butler? You must explain that connection to me! --Andrew, Aleal 16:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ::::::::Dudley Moore played Rhett in The Muppets Go to the Movies --Nate Radionate 16:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC) Just because I didn't know, I did a search, and it's spelling "Scheherazade". I didn't realize that was the name of the storyteller. You taught me something today!! --Nate Radionate 21:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :One other thing (I asked Danny as well). Would it be in poor taste to include Noah (from 'Muppets From Space? --Nate ''Radionate 22:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ::I wouldn't, personally, though I'm a Christian and arguably biased. I'd place him and any other characters of that ilk in an adjunct to Theological Figures. Or possibly a page on Historical celebrities, which could include quasi-historical figures such as Noah and so forth. Also, I've figured out why I was uneasy about Dr. Dolittle and Creature Shop characters, which I'll articulate in more detail later, but it's because in these full adaptations, famous characters may be used but they're not really being treated or used as "celebrity fictional characters" but as a sort of self-enclosed universe. Gomer Pyle, Ernestine the Telephone Operator, or Arte Johnson's German soldiers are treated as celebrity cameos by iconic figures, whether they interact with Muppets or just appear in a "special guest" sketch. And in the Muppet storybook adaptations, though they do adapt a text, they basically treat it as "It's the Muppet Show with our very special guest stars Mr. Scrooge/Long John Silver/Dorothy Gale." The same sort of dynamic used when a guest star reprised their famous roles or played a lead in a "book" episode (Feldman, Brooke Shields, Lynn Redgrave). That dynamic doesn't really work in things like Gulliver's Travels, where the full original context is maintained. The more I think about it, the more I think an "Adapted Characters/Properties" list would be better for that kind of thing. If Gulliver suddenly popped up in an episode of Aliens in the Family, though, then he would be a fictional celebrity. --Andrew, Aleal 23:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :::Gotcha and Gotcha --Nate Radionate 23:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ::::It's also why you could make a case for Billy Bones as a fictional celebrity (as his scenes are basically a special guest star turn not only for Billy Connelly, but for everyone's favorite fictional drunken pirate who you know will drop dead during the first act). Captain Flint, on the other hand, while also from the book, appears in only one scene, no interaction with Muppets, and is basically there for a narrative and thematic purpose, not as a guest star, while Noah's appearance, though like I said I'm hesitant to list him as fictional, functions on a level closer to that of the current examples, where the point isn't just to get F. Murray Abraham in, but for the audience to say, "Hey! It's Gonzo talking to Noah in front of the ark!" --Andrew, Aleal 23:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :::::Whew. Now it's getting really confusing!! --Nate Radionate 23:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ::::::I was trying to make it less confusing! But if you want to count Captain Flint as a fictional celebrity, I'll do what I so often do, just grumble a bit and let you do it. --Andrew, Aleal 23:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC) :::::::Okay, now I'm just confused if you are being sarcastic or serious. Would Billy Bones even be considered? If he is, then why not Liza as "Lola". To some people, they immediately know the story of the "fictional celebrity", others don't have a bloody clue who they are. That's why I'm unsure about Flint. How many people actually know who the hell he is? Part of "celebrity" is being regonized by the public (or a good chunk of it). And all apologies about Noah. I wasn't trying to be an ass, just was unsure about including him. To me, it's a bible story, much like "Jonah and the Whale". Which I always thought weren't factual historical stories. But then again, I don't need to even being going there and starting people on religious arguements, so I'll track down the list to put Noah on later on if nobody else has done it. --Nate Radionate 05:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC) :::::::::Now you've lost me again. What *is* Lola from? As far as I knew, Lola as the nightclub dancer embroiled in a murder mystery was a purely original creation of The Muppet Show, even if the name is mentioned in the song. I agree I wouldn't be putting Flint in, but remember our debates over Old Joe (who I didn't feel was famous enough as a Christmas figure, and you thought was)? So I mentioned Billy Bones, who is fairly closely associated with Treasure Island, as about the limit to what I'd consider fictional celebrities as far as "literary" creations go. And for the record, I'm never sarcastic on the Wiki. Except possibly when discussing Frackles. --Andrew, Aleal 05:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Oh you know. Her Name was Lola. She was a Showgirl. With yellow feathers in her hair and a dress cut down to there. You are too straight. The song in The Muppet Show was written by Barry Manilow, and is one of his most famous songs. Maybe it's the theatre geek in me, or the gay genes, but I just figured everyone knew who Lola was. :) And now you make me wonder if I should make a case for Billy Bones and Flint, but I'm apt to say no. --Nate Radionate 05:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Actors/Cameos What do you think about the distinction between cameos and acting roles? I noticed that a lot of people, like John Landis and Steve Martin, are in both categories. I was thinking about cleaning it up, so that cameo appearances were in Category:Muppet Movies Cameos, and actors in main roles were in the Category:Muppet Movies Actors. Any thoughts, comments? --Nate Radionate 18:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC) :Well, see here for a discussion of the distinction: Category_talk:Muppet_Movies_Cameos. Basically,, I proposed, and Brad and Danny agreed, that if an actor appeared as a character, however briefly, they would go in both. If in a starring or co-starring role (Dave Thomas, Diana Rigg), etc., actors only, and if they appeared as themselves (Edgar Bergen, Ed Koch, Quentin Tarantino), cameos only. If you want to remove the cameo tag on Landis and Martin and qualify them as actors, I'd buy that, but to get further into quantifying the roles (Mel Brooks has a more substantial role in The Muppet Movie than Carol Kane, say) becomes problematic, especially with something like Muppets from Space, where all actors were basically lumped in alphabetically as "starring," with only Jeffrey Tambor receiving privileged billing. --Andrew, Aleal 19:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC) ::Well poo on me for not looking there. That explains it then! --Nate Radionate 20:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC) :::Yeah this came out of a long discussin from the old Muppet Movie Cast category, now deleted along with the discussion sadly. At the time, there was only that and Celebrities, which raised a problem with some parts which were billed in the same lump as cameos (Dave Thomas and Joe Flaherty) but were clearly larger and as celebrities grew, it became harder to track who appeared in movies. As is, there's still plenty I never got around to double counting, and a few like Cloris Leachman who are in neither. So feel free to use your own judgement over whether a celebrity actor's role counts as a cameo, but if you are going to make any further distinction, I'd rather then that you just get rid of any actors not playing themselves from cameos (which would reduce the category greatly). --Andrew, Aleal 21:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Voice Actors, etc. Question mon amie...what is the policy on voice over actors as far as IMDb goes? If they have extensive listings, but no bio info, can we go ahead and include the IMDb link for people to click and see what all they've done? --Nate Radionate 21:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC) :There's no real policy, unless IMDb has less info than we have. I just don't always bother, and most of the voice actor pages were done before my time anyway. Though I'd also point out Voicechasers, which in particular for folks like the Muppet Babies or other voice actors who work largely in animation, usually has more complete listings as well as images, website links, etc. The fact that I've been a lead contributor to the site has no real bearing on the recommendation. :) N'cest pas? --Andrew, Aleal 21:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC) Biscuit Beast Hey, was that your first user name block? Congratulations! You probably could've done it earlier if you wanted to -- when somebody does the same pointless edit three times in a row and ignores your patient messages, then he's not gonna suddenly grow a clue. But it's nice that you gave him the chance to have five edits. What a freakin' loser. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC) :Yeah, well, I wound up blocking myself first! But yeah. I try to be patient, on the off chance (folks like User:Big V have proven to be useful contributors), but after ignoring two direct messages, I'd had it. I mean, I think it would be neat if Cookie on Plaza Sesamo had been renamed "Pepe Pasteles," but I don't feel a need to continually stick my own fancies into a factual article. --Andrew, Aleal 17:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC) ::Yeah, I blocked myself once, and I didn't even notice until Guillermo pointed it out. It's a good thing you can unblock yourself. The thing that's weird and obsessive about the Biscuit Beast is adding the same thing over and over, even though it keeps getting taken out. That happens on Wikipedia a lot, and that's the reason why I think they need a user name policy. Clearly, the guy has some kind of disorder. A normal person would have gotten the hint around edit #2. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC) Picture nominations Hey babe: I reverted the change you made to Main Page picture nominations. The Xs get added on Sunday, when the picture changes. It shows which pictures didn't get a vote at the time of the picture change. Last week, Dean was voting for the TMS Pitch Sketch, so that doesn't get an X. After the picture change, he moved his vote to SSbooks. Nobody voted for Wilkins and Wontkins last week, so that got an X. Warrick just voted for it, so if he doesn't move his vote, then the X there will get removed on Sunday. I have no idea if that makes any sense. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC) :It doesn't, actually. The previous discussion implied that xes are removed once a vote is added. I guess I follow, but it potentially means an xed image could get three votes. Of course, if we're doing it weekly, it doesn't matter as much anyway. It still looks a bit funky though, but at least I know now what's being done with the Xs. --Andrew, Aleal 14:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC) ::I think the point is that if I vote for a picture with an X, and the X is immediately removed, I can change my vote before the deadline and have effectively saved a picture without actually voting for it. --Peter Pantalones 14:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC) :::Okay, now I sort of get it. Math be hard. --Andrew, Aleal 14:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC) ::::I think the whole thing will be clearer when we've done it a couple of times, and everybody can see how it works. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC) Search Are they doing work on Wiki? Last night it keep going down for me, and today I cannot use the search feature. --Nate Radionate 08:42, 5 April 2006 (PDT) :Yeah, search is being evil. I'm using Google for the birthday stuff right now (though I need to quit, have a meeting). --Andrew, Aleal 08:43, 5 April 2006 (PDT) Andrew's talk archive *Muppet Wiki Talk Archives Mme. Alma Gluck Andrew, To answer your question, Mme. Alma Gluck is the soprano who performed the Front & Back "Blue Danube" in the segment "Live from the Nest" on Sesame Street.Thogboy 22:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)